Pravin Gordhan former minister of multiple portfolios in the South African government and who is a former Commissioner of the South Africa Revenue Service has passed away. This follows Gordhan being admitted to hospital earlier this week, and his retirement from government and politics before the national elections in May. Joining CNBC Africa to reflect on the passing of Pravin Gordhan is Azar Jammine, Director & Chief Economist, Econometrix and Johann Van Loggerenberg, Former GE of Enforcement at SARS.
Pravin Gordhan former minister of multiple portfolios in the South African government and who is also the former Commissioner of the South African Revenue Service has passed away. This follows Gordhan being admitted to hospital earlier this week, and his retirement from government and politics before the national elections in May. To reflect on the passing of Pravin Gordhan we are joined by Azar Jammine, who is a Director & Chief Economist at Econometrix and Johann Van Loggerenberg, the former GE of Enforcement at SARS. Gentlemen, thank you so much for your time. Azar, I'm going to start off with you, your initial reaction on the passing of Pravin Gordhan when you found out this morning. I have to say that I was saddened even prior to this to hear that he was very ill. My first contact with Pravin Gordhan was in 1992 where we shared a platform doing presentations together and the commonality was that we both had two-year-old daughters at the time and he shared with me a lot of the information about how, you know, the struggle had gone. At that time it was so interesting, people were coming out progressively with stories about how they had suffered during the struggle and it was so interesting to get that first-hand from him. But subsequently I also came to admire him tremendously for his courage in firstly highlighting the whole, I think he coined the phrase, state capture, but it began already when he delivered a budget speech in 2013 and said, you know, there are some things that are not working terribly well, is there any point in the government having to pay 28 grand for a loaf of bread when you can go to the supermarket and get it for eight grand? And that was the first sign we didn't realise at the time that there had been a concerted attempt on the part of the regime that had been installed a couple of years earlier to capture South Africa's institutions for the benefit of a handful of people. And progressively he stood his ground and fought against a lot of people whom he was supposedly co-loyal to, co-loyal in support of the ANC and I think that showed a tremendous amount of courage and for that reason I think we need to really, he's left a wonderful legacy and will be remembered by all for a long, long while. Johan, I'm going to come to you here because a few hours ago you shared your note and you describe him as someone who was at the forefront of the battle against state capture. You put him in the same sort of category as the likes of Batman and Robin, Green Arrow, as well as the Phantom and you also mentioned that you met him at the age of 29. Talk to me about that meeting. Yes, well the analogy of the superheroes is really the point that I was trying to make because I remember as a little boy how I liked these comic strips and how certain superheroes appealed to me because they didn't really have superpowers, they were ordinary people and had to rely on their ingenuity and their sheer determination to take on the bad guys. The first time I met him was coincidental. It was at the time when I was about to be appointed at the revenue service in my late 20s and I was asked to attend a meeting. He was still the deputy commissioner at the time but I did not know this. He saw my surname on one of the documents that motivated for my appointment at the time and it was similar to the surname of somebody that had tortured him and he wanted to know if we were related. We were not, but the conversation then very quickly turned into what can the revenue service do in its efforts to collect revenue and ensure that we remain a sovereign country but at the same time also lift the tax compliance levels and also contribute towards fighting the illicit economy and crime in the country in general. I immediately realized that I was speaking to a brilliant mind and a brilliant strategist and somebody who was truly dedicated to making the country a better place for all, including his critics and enemies by the way. You also mentioned that South Africans will never know how hard he worked to fight against state capture and corruption. I want to focus in on your work experience with him at SARS. What was it like in fighting those aspects of corruption and trying to get SARS to be what we imagine a SARS to work like and supposed to function? We certainly made a lot of enemies from all parts of society as was evident from the years 2014 onwards in those efforts because we were not scared to take on the most powerful and the enforcement component of the revenue service of the time was very small in comparison to other parts of the criminal justice system. It was tiny really but it was directly attributable to his efforts. It was one of the elements of his strategy when he began at the revenue service. He wanted to strengthen the enforcement arm and it's something that was built over many years and to quote him at the point in time he said it takes many years to build something and you can break it overnight. We're now back into that cycle where the new administration at the revenue service are in the process of rebuilding and it will take time to do so. I certainly think that part of his legacy will be the fact that the South African revenue service was viewed as a world leader as a tax and customs authority to the extent that powerful developed nations sent work teams to come and learn from us how we were doing things and that's something nobody can ever take away from him. In fact a lot of the people that are still at the revenue service are products of his efforts. Azar, I want to come to you here because in his final speech that he penned from his hospital bed, you know Praveen Godan decried the ruinous outcomes of the state capture, you know, decade but as much as people you know are sending in those condolences, those tributes, he still had the critics on the other side. When you think of the legacy of Praveen Godan, especially in the last 10 years or so, what do you think that legacy will be? I think the legacy will be that he was a man of great courage, that he was a man of great honesty and integrity. There is of course a view that he was ideologically inclined to support state intervention at all costs and there was a lot of criticism of him and during his tenure as Minister of Public Enterprises for the progressive deterioration in the quality and capability of these enterprises that was associated with a decline in service delivery in areas such as electricity, transport and logistics and even airlines and he was quite adamant often in pushing back against wholesale privatization of activities that previously belonged to these state-owned enterprises and many have criticized him for this but that does not detract away from the fact that he showed tremendous courage in fighting state capture and what he struggled to do of course was to dampen the negative effects that state capture had on these enterprises. A lot of corruption led to resources being diverted away from what should have been maintenance and investment by these enterprises towards the pockets of a handful of connected individuals instead and does one blame him for not being able to succeed in fighting this completely or not? There are those who feel ideologically that it was his ideology that stood in the way of actually rectifying the structure of the SOEs at the time. Johan, if I can come to you, when was the last time you saw Pravin and was he in good spirits? Do you remember what the conversation was, whether you met him in passing or was it a conversation? No, I mean in passing it was at a media event and I just happened to be there and he happened to be there and our paths crossed and of course I went to say hello to him and we basically just caught up on where we were at that point in time. I'm going to stay with you with this particular question. For those of us who didn't know him at a personal level, at a professional level, having worked with him, we get an almost mixed picture in terms of what he was really like behind closed doors, whether he was really stern or he was somebody who was really passionate about his job and judging by the tributes that have come in, you get the sense that he was. What's the one thing you're going to remember about Pravin that comes to mind? You know, it's very difficult to isolate one thing. It's the combination of his absolute integrity and his determinism, focusing on output and his concern for all South Africans and that we could all actually contribute to making society better for all. Azhar, as someone who you said you met in 1992, I can imagine just like Johan, there's a lot of things that come to mind. The one thing that comes to mind? Well, a number of things do. The one that struck me was when I addressed the Black Management Forum and he was one of the co-speakers and out in the guest room, I asked him, I said, but you know, this was still in the early days of state capture. I said, this is costing the country billions. I reckon probably 200 billion rand has been wasted. He said, multiply that a number of times. The costs are enormous. Another event that I will never, he used to invite myself and a number of economists to meet with him prior to delivering the annual budget on occasion just to get some ideas. On the one occasion, we were highly critical of the way state capture was wasting away a lot of the country's resources. He was apologetic for coming into the meeting late and then he kind of sniggered. He says, well, one of the person that I was with is precisely, and it was a reference to Dudu Mejani and how he was struggling to rectify SAA in the context of that. So I have some very warm feelings regarding him as a person who was amiable and who looked for people to try and assist him as well as, yes, there have been allegations of this arrogance. I didn't come across that personally. I think there was a lot of mutual respect between myself and himself and I will remember him for that. And I suppose a lot of that mutual respect also emanated from my respect for his integrity and determination to fight against what was evil in the country. Gentlemen, thank you so much for your time. That is Azhar Jamin, who is the Director and Chief Economist at Econometrics and Johan van Locherenberg, who is the former Group Executive of Enforcement at SARS.
Theme: Remembering the Legacy of Pravin Gordhan: A Champion Against State Capture and Corruption in South Africa
The South African nation is mourning the loss of a true champion of integrity and courage, Pravin Gordhan. Gordhan, a former minister in various government portfolios and the ex-Commissioner of the South African Revenue Service, passed away after being admitted to the hospital earlier this week and retiring from politics before the national elections in May. His legacy as a stalwart fighter against state capture and corruption will be remembered for years to come. Reflecting on the passing of Pravin Gordhan, Azar Jammine, Director & Chief Economist at Econometrix, and Johann Van Loggerenberg, former GE of Enforcement at SARS, shared their insights in a recent interview with CNBC Africa. Azar Jammine shared his initial reaction to Gordhan's passing, highlighting the admiration he had for Gordhan's courage in standing against corruption and state capture. He recalled a personal encounter with Gordhan in 1992, where he witnessed Gordhan's firsthand account of the struggle for justice in South Africa. Jammine emphasized Gordhan's significant contribution to exposing corruption and the capture of state institutions, leaving behind a legacy of integrity and bravery. Johann Van Loggerenberg praised Gordhan as a superhero in the fight against corruption, likening him to iconic comic book characters who used their ingenuity to combat evil. Van Loggerenberg recounted his experience working with Gordhan at SARS, where they faced formidable challenges in tackling corruption and enforcing tax compliance. He highlighted Gordhan's strategic vision to strengthen SARS' enforcement arm, positioning the organization as a global leader in tax and customs administration. In discussing Gordhan's legacy in the last decade, both Jammine and Van Loggerenberg acknowledged his unwavering commitment to honesty and courage. While Gordhan faced criticism for his stance on state intervention and management of state-owned enterprises, his relentless efforts to combat corruption and uphold ethical standards defined his tenure in public service. Despite his critics, Gordhan's dedication to fighting state capture and preserving South Africa's integrity remained unwavering. His final speech from his hospital bed underscored the devastating impact of corruption on the country, reflecting his deep-seated commitment to eradicating the scourge of state capture. Van Loggerenberg shared a personal anecdote of encountering Gordhan at a media event, reminiscing about their brief interaction and Gordhan's genuine concern for the welfare of all South Africans. He noted Gordhan's exceptional integrity, determination, and focus on collective progress as his enduring legacy. As South Africans mourn the loss of a visionary leader, the legacy of Pravin Gordhan as a fearless fighter for justice and transparency will continue to inspire future generations. His legacy serves as a testament to the power of integrity and determination in the face of adversity, leaving an indelible mark on the history of South Africa.
"His legacy serves as a testament to the power of integrity and determination in the face of adversity, leaving an indelible mark on the history of South Africa."
['Pravin Gordhan', 'South Africa', 'State Capture', 'Corruption', 'Legacy', 'Integrity', 'Courage']